I will always try to honor the wishes of the placer, as long as I know
them.

I really don't want to start anything unpleasant (large or small flame
war) here, however I have to say that I honestly don't see the
difference between an update or database entry.

That said, Funhog if I am ever lucky enough to be on the hunt for any
of your boxes, the databases will not know about it.

catbead 1



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "funhog1" wrote:
> Please, please, please don't enter any of my boxes in any
> database. I may be a dinosaur but I really don't want the status
> of my boxes listed anywhere except on the LbNA site. I try to keep
> current on them and love to hear updates from those who search
> for them. Keep me posted, you all!
>
> Unfortunately, I have found seven of my boxes listed on the
> NewAge site and have been unable to get them removed even
> with direct requests. If you are responsible for these entries,
> please do your best to have them removed for me. Alternatively,
> I am considering pulling these boxes.
>
> Thanks for the help, Funhog

> Thanks for the help, Funhog

Thank you , for saying what so many of us feel !

Brian
TeamGreenDragon

I concur completely with your sentiments Funhog. I do not wish my
boxes to be placed in any update or other type of database,
specially here on the Yahoo groups site. I personally prefer that
my boxes remain under my control as far as the information
concerning them and the clues and would like that anyone finding or
not finding them please contact me via email or my website with
their status of them and I will make whatever changes are needed to
the status or clues.

Should I ever get the chance to search for any of your boxes Funhog,
you will be the only person that hears of the 'reports' on them.

Steve of Rayvenhaus

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "funhog1" wrote:
> Please, please, please don't enter any of my boxes in any
> database. I may be a dinosaur but I really don't want the status
> of my boxes listed anywhere except on the LbNA site. I try to keep
> current on them and love to hear updates from those who search
> for them. Keep me posted, you all!
>
> Unfortunately, I have found seven of my boxes listed on the
> NewAge site and have been unable to get them removed even
> with direct requests. If you are responsible for these entries,
> please do your best to have them removed for me. Alternatively,
> I am considering pulling these boxes.
>
> Thanks for the help, Funhog

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "funhog1" wrote:
> Please, please, please don't enter any of my boxes in any
> database. I may be a dinosaur but I really don't want the status
> of my boxes listed anywhere except on the LbNA site. I try to keep
> current on them and love to hear updates from those who search
> for them. Keep me posted, you all!
>
> Unfortunately, I have found seven of my boxes listed on the
> NewAge site and have been unable to get them removed even
> with direct requests. If you are responsible for these entries,
> please do your best to have them removed for me. Alternatively,
> I am considering pulling these boxes.
>
> Thanks for the help, Funhog

No problem, Funhog, now that I know what your wishes are. There are
only two letterboxes of yours in my neck of the woods, and I haven't
found either of them yet (I haven't searched, yet, either - just to
clarify).

Warrior Woman

Truth is , I love it when people post that they have found any of
our boxes . I don't even mind that our " Strix Varia " box seems to
get mentioned along with others that almost shout out it's
location .
I want our boxes to be found , I work hard on these stamps , I want
people to see them .
If you are monitoring the list and pick up a piece of info from the
chatter , then more power to you . If you go back and research the
list for info,then good for you . It's having the info stored in
one place for anyone to access or enter that bugs me . The only good
thing about the database on the newage site is that it's become too
large to be manageable . I used to go through it to see if our boxes
are being listed ( a few are ) but now it takes so long , I don't
bother any more . If I remember right, a poll was taken when the
database was first introduced on this site . I believe the results of
that poll showed that the majority of people opposed the idea of a
database .
I know that some of the more active and long time box creators are
very much opposed to the idea . I have much respect for these people
and can almost sum up my feelings by saying " if Jay Drew is against
it , then I'm against it " . I figure the truth is that if someone
likes the idea of a databaseand they have the tools needed to
create it , then they feel they should make it and the feelings of
others , who have created the boxes " be damned " .

Brian
TeamGreenDragon

Dear Letterboxers,

I agree with Funhog about listing the status of boxes on a database.
I enjoy creating boxes and finding interesting spots in which to hide
them. They are my very meager offerings. I try to keep them in good
condition. When a box is posted into a database by anyone else but
me, it strips me of my feeling of ownership (WC) of the box. I have
my own ideas of what my box should be and resent that creativity
being stripped from my control. I especially abhor the comments
field in the database. All comments are subjective, therefore
judgemental. Judgement = criticism, even if you think you are being
nice (think teenagers). Remember that I am an amateur artist and
letterboxer. The compensation I receive is the pleasure I get from
hearing from finders, especially directly, but also on list.

I read alot of posts that say "I don't understand why so-and-so
doesn't want this done MY WAY". My answer to this is YOU don't need
to understand, simply respect. I really think it is time to start
respecting the creativity and generosity of the letterbox placers.


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "funhog1" wrote:
> Please, please, please don't enter any of my boxes in any
> database. I may be a dinosaur but I really don't want the status
> of my boxes listed anywhere except on the LbNA site. I try to keep
> current on them and love to hear updates from those who search
> for them. Keep me posted, you all!
>
> Unfortunately, I have found seven of my boxes listed on the
> NewAge site and have been unable to get them removed even
> with direct requests. If you are responsible for these entries,
> please do your best to have them removed for me. Alternatively,
> I am considering pulling these boxes.
>
> Thanks for the help, Funhog

Okay, so I'm really new and not hugely computer-literate. What do you mean by 'putting in a database'? I know of the Letterboxing North America website where I get my clues from. Do you mean that folks should contact the placer to update the information on that website (as we have) or is there another database out there?

Not sure.

Happy Holidays, All!
And, Hey! Be Careful Out There!

Dave of Diane and Dave, the von der Insels
----- Original Message -----
From: funhog1
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:57 PM
Subject: [LbNA] database phobic


Please, please, please don't enter any of my boxes in any
database. I may be a dinosaur but I really don't want the status
of my boxes listed anywhere except on the LbNA site. I try to keep
current on them and love to hear updates from those who search
for them. Keep me posted, you all!

Unfortunately, I have found seven of my boxes listed on the
NewAge site and have been unable to get them removed even
with direct requests. If you are responsible for these entries,
please do your best to have them removed for me. Alternatively,
I am considering pulling these boxes.

Thanks for the help, Funhog


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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have issues with the quality of information going into the
database. Truth of the matter is that I have had a boxer
announce that at least one of my boxes was missing when it
was still in place. If your box is listed as missing or if someone
reports that they could find it-- is the person consulting that
database going to bother looking for it? I am the only one that
can truly say wether one of my boxes is missing and I reserve
that right.

C. latrans

I'm with you 100%! Unfortunately, those who have created the NewAge database seem to think that they have
the right to enter your boxes with or without your permission and are unwilling to remove it when asked.
Thanks for the support. Funhog


> I have issues with the quality of information going into the
> database. Truth of the matter is that I have had a boxer
> announce that at least one of my boxes was missing when it
> was still in place. If your box is listed as missing or if someone
> reports that they could find it-- is the person consulting that
> database going to bother looking for it? I am the only one that
> can truly say wether one of my boxes is missing and I reserve
> that right.
>
> C. latrans

Well, since the database issue is out on the table again, I decided
to take a moment to read what all the hubbub is about. To my suprise,
I found that several of my boxes are reported on there (in the New
Age DB). For the most part, I am not offended by this. If people are
interested enough in my boxes to want to report their success in
finding them or let others know whether the locations are appropriate
for kids, so be it.



But then I read the comment for "State of Maine", and discovered that
the box has been reduced to "quick and easy at reststop". Now I'm not
claiming that it takes a rocket scientist to determine that "State of
Maine" is located at a rest stop, but frankly the clue that I devised
does not explicitly say that the box is at a rest stop. If the
purpose of the database is to provide information that is incidental
to decyphering the clue, fine. But if the end result is the watering
down of clues, I have to object.

To be fair to the database camp, the first of the three rules listed
on the group's home page seems to suggest that this sort of behavior
is not desired - specifically:

1. Don't give hints to clues unless someone is really stuck and can't
get ahold of the placer for a hint.

But it appears that this rule is not strictly adhered to by all
database participants.

I just a little confused here... please pardon my questions, but I'm not sure of something.......

Last I knew, the Database issue here on this group had been handled/dealt with whatever....

Why are we discussing a different groups database here on this list?

Just curious.

Steve of Rayvenhaus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd just like to say that I reserve the right to poison any databases
I find with false information--both about my own boxes and other
people's boxes. =)

Happy trails!

-- Ryan

What you need to do is post a message to that group and/or send a
message to the moderator or owner requesting the "spoiler" info be
removed.

catbead 1


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "lb_isosceles"
wrote:

>>>>snip>>>
>But then I read the comment for "State of Maine", and discovered that
> the box has been reduced to "quick and easy at reststop". Now I'm not
> claiming that it takes a rocket scientist to determine that "State of
> Maine" is located at a rest stop, but frankly the clue that I devised
> does not explicitly say that the box is at a rest stop. If the
> purpose of the database is to provide information that is incidental
> to decyphering the clue, fine. But if the end result is the watering
> down of clues, I have to object.

I know there are no boxes listed as missing on that database, unless
they were already "confirmed" missing by the box owner. Which is
about 4 of them I believe. A poll has shown that boxes "not found"
do not discourage seekers in any way, but rather adds to the
challenge. Comments should not include spoilers. They are unintended.
I don't post "sitreps" here anymore.. because some people don't
like them. Some people don't like anything. There is alot of
aggression and animosity here. I try hard to see both sides to every
issue but I simply cannot grasp this conflict or why people are so
passionate about it (and no one seems to be willing to explain it)
Do you condemn me for this?

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "coyotl_clan"
wrote:
> I have issues with the quality of information going into the
> database. Truth of the matter is that I have had a boxer
> announce that at least one of my boxes was missing when it
> was still in place. >
> C. latrans

I am a member of the NewAgeLb group and have been since it began, but
thanks for the info.

catbead 1


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Alafair" wrote:
> Your suggestion has been tried and those who asked were either
> ignored completely or were treated with utter disrespect.>
> FYI,the NewAge list is a "closed" list that requires "approval" to
> join, as you know, so I believe, a non-member cannot post there. In
> truth, as you know, there was quite the discussion there about those
> who might be lurking and not "pro-database" so to speak and "what to
> do" about that. In addition, the moderators have been disrespectful
> to as well as completely uncooperative with those who have requested
> that mentions of their letterboxes be removed in part or in total.
>
> I rest my case.
>
> Alafair
>
>
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "catbead1" wrote:
> > What you need to do is post a message to that group and/or send a
> > message to the moderator or owner requesting the "spoiler" info be
> > removed.
> >
> > catbead 1
> >
> >
> > --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "lb_isosceles"
> > wrote:
> >
> > >>>>snip>>>
> > >But then I read the comment for "State of Maine", and discovered
> that
> > > the box has been reduced to "quick and easy at reststop". Now I'm
> not
> > > claiming that it takes a rocket scientist to determine
> that "State of
> > > Maine" is located at a rest stop, but frankly the clue that I
> devised
> > > does not explicitly say that the box is at a rest stop. If the
> > > purpose of the database is to provide information that is
> incidental
> > > to decyphering the clue, fine. But if the end result is the
> watering
> > > down of clues, I have to object.

If 5 people report a box "not found" I suspect the "add to the
challenge" turns into "won't look for it" for most folks. I
personally have a box that has been reported (to me by email,
thankfully) "missing" at least 4 times when it isn't. I think only
one person has found it on their first attempt. I shudder to think
what would happen if these reports went to some database I don't
know about or don't monitor.

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Kstar" wrote:
I try hard to see both sides to every
> issue but I simply cannot grasp this conflict or why people are so
> passionate about it (and no one seems to be willing to explain
it)

What I can't figure out is why you all are arguing here, about what goes on
over there. Get a grip people. Move on we have ALL heard your opinions on
this before. You can't change it. All you can do is reiterate and reiterate
and to be blunt, moan and cry over it. Your opinions are all noted. Enough
already. Move on.
Kerri
(who actually tried to keep out of it, but can't stand the whining any more)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Time for a little water on this flame up? Letterboxing should be able to take
you away from life's stressors, not create more. Thanks for the reality check
Kerri.
Koyote


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I try hard to see both sides to every issue but I simply cannot
> grasp this conflict or why people are so passionate about it (and
> no one seems to be willing to explain it)

Does it matter why people feel so passionate about it, one way or
another? The fact that it brings up so much animosity is a good
enough reason to dump the database idea, even if someone personally
happen to like it.

Then to take a bad idea to another letterboxing board where
only "certain" people are allowed to join--talk about a slap to the
face. It's insulting.

Anyhow, it's kind of pointless when the database is full of
misinformation.

-- Ryan

Hi, Funhog!

I have read a lot of replies to this post. I can see people's points and counterpoints. Surely, I can respect your wishes, and anyone else's concerning yours/their respective boxes.

My little problem is that I can't even remember where I put my keys on any given day. ;-) I seldom post about a box other than in reply to a question, and just give my experience or opinion. I try not to spoil anyone's fun. However, because this is such a touchy subject with some people, I rarely post a thing here, and hardly even read the LbNA database because I could never remember who has requested their boxes be (or not be) posted about or refered to, and under what conditions, and where it's okay, and what constitutes "too much info" in anyone's opinion...

So, I would just like to make a suggestion that all placers who feel anything pro or con about public posts make note of their feelings on the clues and in the box. Then people like me are likely to remember the placer's wishes or can easily check the clues again before posting. I have one set of clues that clearly states: THIS BOX IS NOT TO BE REFERRED TO IN ANY WAY ON ANY TALKLIST, TALKLIST DATABASE OR WEBSITE WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE OWNER.
Good thing! Then I really have no excuse for posting a status update or asking questions to this list.

I honestly can't say that I'd remember anyone's wishes from what I've read here on the list, no matter how many threads and posts cover this issue. Please put your wishes on your clues and in your boxes so I won't be a dunce and piss you off. I wouldn't do so out of disrespect or disregard. Just please be crystal clear and say if discussing your boxes on this list is okay, or if only private emails are okay, etc.

Best regards,
Mary (RI)

----- Original Message -----
From: funhog1
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:57 PM
Subject: [LbNA] database phobic


Please, please, please don't enter any of my boxes in any
database. I may be a dinosaur but I really don't want the status
of my boxes listed anywhere except on the LbNA site. I try to keep
current on them and love to hear updates from those who search
for them. Keep me posted, you all!

Unfortunately, I have found seven of my boxes listed on the
NewAge site and have been unable to get them removed even
with direct requests. If you are responsible for these entries,
please do your best to have them removed for me. Alternatively,
I am considering pulling these boxes.

Thanks for the help, Funhog


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

:~))
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen"
wrote:
> > I try hard to see both sides to every issue but I simply cannot
> > grasp this conflict or why people are so passionate about it (and
> > no one seems to be willing to explain it)
>
> Does it matter why people feel so passionate about it, one way or
> another? The fact that it brings up so much animosity is a good
> enough reason to dump the database idea, even if someone personally
> happen to like it.
>
> Then to take a bad idea to another letterboxing board where
> only "certain" people are allowed to join--talk about a slap to the
> face. It's insulting.
>
> Anyhow, it's kind of pointless when the database is full of
> misinformation.
>
> -- Ryan

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen"
wrote:
> I'd just like to say that I reserve the right to poison any
databases
> I find with false information--both about my own boxes and other
> people's boxes. =)
>
> Happy trails!
>
> -- Ryan

I don't have too much time to get out and letterbox, so when I do, I
like to have a pretty good chance of success. Or at least know that
the box is there, and I'm not completely wasting my time. I joined
the group known as "New Age Letterboxing" because I like the idea of
a database, even though many of the people here seem not to. I wish
more boxes were in it. It is helpful. You don't have to use it.
Let those of us who like it to letterbox in peace. If you don't like
the idea, you don't have to use it. Intentionally poisoning someone
elses hard work and other peoples fun is just mean and stupid.

Lurty

> Let those of us who like it to letterbox in peace. If you don't
> like the idea, you don't have to use it. Intentionally poisoning
> someone elses hard work and other peoples fun is just mean and
> stupid.

Sorry you feel that way. It is mean, I suppose, although I don't
think it's so stupid. I do not approve boxes being on that list
without the owner's permission and am trying to kill the database.
Reasoning hasn't worked, but perhaps poisoning it with false
information will.

And I'm not even opposed to a database in principle--it's the fact
that boxes are being added without the owner's consent that I don't
like. It's mean and stupid for the database owner to allow boxes be
included without the box owner's permission.

And you know, I'm sure a lot of people WOULD approve of their boxes
being listed in the database. You know--catching more flies with
honey than vinegar. If they would just ask the owners before adding
a box, it would be a happy, florishing database that I wouldn't mess
with.

And--this might really surprise you--I wouldn't even care if MY boxes
were included (minus the mystery boxes--I don't want those in the
database, but only a small minority of my boxes are mysteries).
Shocking, I know, but it's the principle of the thing. While I don't
care if most of my boxes are in the database, I think it's morally
reprehensible that the owners of the box aren't allowed to have a say
on it.

Think of it as civil disobedience. =) I think the database--as it
now stands--is morally reprehensible and it's the responsibilty of
upstanding citizens such as myself (*clearing throat*) to change it--
or, if that's impossible, destroy it by destroying its credibility.

-- Ryan